Fórum Brigadeiro Nero Moura
Fórum do 1º Grupo de Aviação de Caça Virtual - Senta a Pua!
Mmm, sugiro voce desfiar (online) um dos Master do Il-2, como o Felix, o WhisperDeath...então quem joga de azul nunca vai perder um dogfight contra um F4
A performance nitidamente superior dos Zeros era reconhecida pelos pilotos e abatia o moral deles.Jimmy Thach wrote:In connection with the performance of the Zero fighter, any success we had against the Zero is not due to the performance of the airplane we fly, but is the result of comparatively poor marksmanship on the part of the Japanese, stupid mistakes made by a few of their pilots and superior marksmanship and teamwork on the part of some of our pilots ...
The deficiency not only prevents our fighter [the F4F] from properly carrying out its mission but it has had an alarming effect on the morale of the fighter pilots in the Fleet at this time and on those who are going to be sent to the Fleet.
Acho que esse tal de "dogfight" - na acepção da palavra - é coisa de simulador de computador...Entrar num dogfight com o Zero
Subaru Sakai vs Pug Southerland.44_Santo wrote: Se souberem de algum relato diferente, postem aqui, pro favor.
A famosa "Tatch Wave" foi uma tática difundida mesmo só em final de 1942. É mais um dests mitos da WWII...As of late 1942, USN intel reports noted that it was the *Zeroes* who tended to use boom and zoom tactics v the F4F; both tried to get altitude and energy advantage if they could. That was unsurprising, for this was the Zero's standard tactic in China in pre-Pacific War combat when it was faster than all its opponents. IJN pilots sometimes fell back on earlier individual aerobatic tactics, but the IJN's official doctrine based on experience in China emphasized cooperative quick firing and break away passes by the 3 plane 'shotai'. Their coordination skills were to be honed by such intense training that they didn't need radios to anticipate one another's moves, and that worked with the highly trained 1942 (and actually, 1943 to a still significant extent) IJN pilots.
~Actually the Navy pilots did OK against the A6M before Jimmy Thach spread the word about the Beam Defense Maneuver. He first tested his theory at Midway and one of the guys in his section did not know what to do as he had not been briefed and his radio was out. Interestingly the first Navy pilots that engaged the A6M at Coral Sea thought it was VSB, (scout bomber) because of it's elongated cockpit. They were astounded by it's performance. Some VSB! They would have liked to have used energy tactics but the Zeros often had the altitude advantage because of the Wildcats being stuck as an escort or because of the F4F's slow rate of climb as an interceptor at Guadalcanal. The IJN pilots did not like to dogfight but their preference was for energy tactics. Lundstrom goes into great detail about this subject in his books. Joe B, I was working on my post while yours was being posted and you stole all my thunder but did it in better style. Attaboy. It is interesting how well the F4F performed versus other contemporary US fighters in the same time period. Probably the worst characteristic of the Wildcat was it's lack of range,(a combat radius from a carrier on internal fuel of only 175 miles) the Zero had twice that.
Em Guadalcanal os japoneses enfrentaram problemas semelhantes do LW na BoB, tinham que operar a 500KM das bases, lutando cansados, contra pilotos voando "sobre suas bases".The Beam Defense Manuever (Thach Weave) was definitely not a widespread 1942 tactic. Lots of websites repeat each other about all kinds of misconceptions, that means zilch. See Lundstrom ("First Team" and "First Team in the Guadalcanal Campaign", but also Frank ("Guadalcanal"), or any of the first hand accounts of the Marine units fighting at Guadalcanal (which represented most of the Zero kills by F4F's in 1942), who did not use that particular tactic. The Thach Weave was a mainly post-1942 tactic.
As far as boom and zoom, if it just means trying to initiate combat with an altitude advantage, then sure, but that's what most fighters usually tried to do, including the IJN as of 1942. It wasn't something limited to the F4F that the Zeroes didn't do also, nor something the F4F did in 1942 that other Allied types didn't try to do too. For example, in the defense of Australia in spring-summer 1942 49th FG P-40's were trying to use 'hit and run' tactics but still only downed around 1/2 as many Zeroes as P-40's lost to Zeroes, better than P-40's had previously done against Zeroes (in Philippines and DEI), but not as well as F4F's did in 1942.
And later in the Guadacanal campaign (still during 1942) Marine units in some cases specifically sought to 'dog fight' Zeroes whose quality of pilots they perceived as having declined. Also, the engagements between carrier based F4F's and carrier based Zeroes in the 4 carrier battles of 1942 gave no particular advantage to the F4F's in establishing superior initial altitude, as some of the Guadalcanal combats did, but the F4F's did about as well in those combats as at Guadalcanal.
Thach Weave was not widely used in 1942, fact. 'Boom and zoom' is a major oversimplification of reason for the F4F's relative success in 1942, IMO.
Wikipédia wrote:On the morning of June 4, 1942, Thach led a six-plane sortie from VF-3, escorting a strike from Yorktown, when they discovered the main Japanese carrier fleet. They were immediately attacked by 15 to 20 Japanese fighters. Thach decided to use his namesake maneuver, marking its first combat usage. Although outnumbered and outmaneuvered, Thach managed to shoot down three Zeros and a wingman accounted for another, at the cost of one Wildcat.
After Midway, Thach was assigned to instruct other pilots in combat tactics. The U.S. Navy pulled its best combat pilots out of action to train newer pilots, while the Japanese kept their best pilots in combat.
Essa foi a principal razão do sucesso americano: como sempre, its the manegement, stupidThe U.S. Navy pulled its best combat pilots out of action to train newer pilots, while the Japanese kept their best pilots in combat.
